Huddle Up with Gus
Huddle Up with Gus

Episode · 1 year ago

Keith Law

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Joining me in the Huddle this week is Senior Baseball Writer at The Athletic, author of THE INSIDE GAME: Bad Calls, Strange Moves, and What Baseball Behavior Teaches Us About Ourselves, Keith LawWe discuss his childhood and how and why he fell in love with baseball. Keith is a numbers guy, and he thought his life would be in the world of business, but after realizing his passion for data and analytics was really in baseball, he took a job with the Toronto Blue Jays. He then worked at ESPN and eventually became the Senior Baseball Writer at The Athletic.

 THE INSIDE GAME shows how the decisions behind baseball—good and bad, big and small— present a new way to appreciate the game’s successes as well as its failures. You can check out Keith and his new book on his Blog Page, http://meadowparty.com/blog/.

Hey everyone, Welcome to another episode of huddle up with Gus, I'm your host, former NFL quarterback Gus Frerotte and welcome to the new 16 31 digital new studio. You know, some people say no news is good news. Well I say to those people you've never read. 16 31 digital news dot com. Go to 16 31 digital news dot com to get your latest news, sports, music and entertainment and maybe even listen to your favorite podcast. Follow up with gusts. Check it out today at www. 16 31 digital news dot com. Welcome to what surely will be a doozy of a matchup brian here. Sports fans, whether your game is on the gridiron at the diamond or on the links, we can only say, yeah, welcome to this week's huddle up with gusts. 15 year NFL quarterback Gus parents' passion for sports has taken him on the field and behind the bench is playing for seven NFL franchises with 114 TVs under his belt. Gus knows who the players are and how the games are. One. Uh, it's not every day you get to hang out with an NFL quarterback up. Okay, sports fans from the decked out and plush 16 31 digital studios, it's kick off time, so snap your chin straps on and get ready to huddle up with us two left. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of huddle up with Gus, I'm your host just for about 15 year NFL quarterback. I want to thank you for joining me in the 16 31 digital news studio. I want to thank Sounder F. M. For having us on their platform and I'm really excited about all the new technologies they're creating. Also want to thank our new sponsor, Manscaped. You can go to Manscaped dot com and you can put in the code Gus Frerotte, F R E R O T T E. And you get 20% off and free shipping. So go to Manscaped, take care of your body and and uh check out their products. So today's Guest I'm really excited about. You know, I've had some authors on before. He's written a new book called The Inside Game Bad Call, Strange moves and what baseball behavior teaches us about ourselves. So today's guest keith law, he's a senior writer for the athletic keith. Thank you for joining me and how are you doing today? Thanks for having me. I'm good. I am. I have scheduled my vaccine appointment for next week so I'm feeling substantially better about the state of the world. Yes, I had mine already, both of them. So uh, it was lucky enough I just got on my insurance and and said, hey, there any times open and I actually had to drive an hour north to go get them. So, which was cool with me. I would do that in a heartbeat. Yeah. So I feel much better. So, uh, yeah, so I'm excited that you're going to do that probably with your job and all the traveling you have to do for baseball. I mean a lot of it you probably can watch virtually, but it's nothing like being there. I won't fly until I've gotten the first shot and then got in two weeks past that. So I've been limited this spring. I've been out in the University of Virginia. I went down to University of Maryland and they go back to you via a next week to see Louisville. But I'm kind of limited to guys I can reach by driving, which, you know, for the draft is a bit of a, an obstacle right. There's draft prospects from texas and florida and California is bad this year, but there's still at least one guy out there. I'd love to see it in a normal year, I would have already seen him, but this is just not a normal year. Well we'll get into the draft because maybe you can explain what the pirates do. I've been a pirate fan my whole life and uh, it's been harder recently than easier, so, but let's get, let's get about you and uh, you know, growing up in Long Island, tell me about the first time, you can remember where you kind of fell in love with sports, was it something that you played? Was it a family member? Was it an idol? What was that for you? So yeah, I'm Long island, it's, it's yankee and met fan territory. My parents are both...

...born and raised in the Bronx uh, and are both italian, my mother's completely italian, my dad is half and if you were italian in the Bronx you were a yankee fan. Absolutely, you know they were, they were the Bronx team and they were also a very, if you look at the lineups from that era to there were a lot of italian americans in the lineup. So the Yankees were always on in the house. We were not an anti mets household. I know for a lot of folks that was kind of a rivalry, but prior to interleague play, who cares or anything ever played each other, we didn't think about it. Um, so my mom will tell you, I watched the 76 77 78 World Series with her sitting on the couch, I would have been 345 Weirdly enough, I don't remember that the first clear memories I have of anything baseball or from 80 and then 81 from the strike year of all things. For me to not just remain of lifelong baseball fan but choose it as my career despite having such strong memories of the season interrupted by a strike is sort of strange. I'd like to think it just demonstrates my commitment to the sport in some sort of perverse way. But I was just, it was always on, we were always rooting for the Yankees. Um and if the Yankees weren't on, we were still, we were watching the mets and we would root for them too. And we were just kind of a baseball house. There was, we'd watch other sports. My dad likes football, he was a Green Bay Packers fan, going back to the Bart Starr days, but it was really baseball first and between my parents, my grandmother, who lived until she was 100 and up until her late nineties was still trying to keep up with the Yankees as much as she could. That's just kind of, that was our house culture and I fell in love with the sport early and then once I discovered to how, you know, just how kind of stats oriented the sport is as just a kid who loved math. I had a second reason to be particularly interested and eventually I would say kind of obsessed with it. Right? So, uh, you know, you talked about watching it. Like when I was growing up, my dad had a little transistor radio and that's what he listened to every pirate game out in the back porch, you get done with work, you're going to come home, going to yard, cut the grass to the garden, whatever he did. But then he always fell asleep on the camel rider we had listening to the pirates play, which, you know, I kind of would sit there and listen to him too. And that's kind of how you become fans. Right. And so did you guys listen to a lot of games as well? Both. Yeah. So the main broadcast crew for the Yankees was Phil Rizzuto, uh, the white and frank Messer and they would rotate between the Tv booth on W. P. I. X. And the radio, which I think was W. Abc back then. And so if we were outside, we just have a radio on And you know, we could just go in and out. Right. We had, especially once my parents got a small pool set up outside my sister and I would just kind of go between the two and we could always have the game on and I still have a very clear memory, I must have been 10 or so and Mel Allen who had retired but was obviously longtime voice of the Yankees, just came and did a game as a guest appearance and it was such a treat for me because I knew who Mel Allen was and he was still the host of this week in baseball, which I would watch any saturday I could to have to get the experience of listening to him call a portion of a Yankees game seemed like a real treat and just kind of another way to connect my fandom to my parents fandom as well. Yeah, you know the people who do the radio and that are really good at it because there's some like it's the same thing here in Pittsburgh like you listen to the game and they'll go between tv and radio like bob walk does it? And a couple other people, some of them are like and they should say the T. V. Like the other radio guys, you know, because you don't give you what you're not, your imagination isn't taking over when they're talking, right? So the good ones like you're talking about man, you just you felt like you were right there sitting behind the plate, right? And I think that that's what special. So in your neighborhood did you did you guys do you have a lot of kids around that you guys play baseball and do all those things? What did you uh you know where you what was it like for you? Yeah, we were very very sort of upper class...

...suburban, very white, very pretty privileged neighborhood on the northern half of Long Island. Long Island is kind of split by the Long Island Expressway. And so right in my little neighborhood there, my parents moved into that house in 71 70 or 71 there were a bunch of kids all within, I would say about a year or so of me. And so there were, especially before I turned, you know, nine or 10 before people started to peel off two more organized activities. There were just always kids playing outside and I was forged. I lived on a corner lot, we had a kind of a long front lawn to that was very good for playing sports. We could like there was remember my mom getting mad because Especially my friend Sean who lived down the street and I'm still in touch is 16 days older than I am. Um he and I wore down a patch of grass because that's where we stood, right. Whether even if we were just playing wiffle ball, which there was a lot of world football back in those days just because you couldn't break a window that way. You know, we just, it was my mom was like, you need to stand somewhere else for home plate because you're killing the grass. My dad used to do that to me all the time. I'm like, dad, it's grass, it'll grow back. Right right now. I find myself doing the same thing, like we have female dogs and they leave these marks all over the uh, kill me. But you know, that's amazing. You talk about, well football. A lot of our guests talk about growing up and playing whiffle ball and then emulating their favorite players swing. Who was at that you emulate who, who's the swing that you like to do? I know you had a favorite, my favorite player was Willie Randolph always was ready, Randolph because he was such a, you know, I think he was my mom's favorite as well while he was a yankee and that obviously would influence my choice, but it was a combination of his, of his uh not just his swing, but he was seen as just a very smart player, like a real cerebral player, he was very patient, uh you know, always always took good at bats, he could run, which was about the only thing I could ever do in any sports at all was I was fast, but that was about it uh and he was a good different Yeah, right, well that's good, especially if someone's chasing you, it's really particularly helpful and now I actually run for exercise, which was the thing I never thought I would do, but my wife got me, it made me start it and suddenly I was like oh actually kind of like this and you know being then we can drop weight kind of easily so she's like you exercise twice and you lost £5 sorry, but real Randolph was a good defensive second basement and a smart base runner. And yeah, I would definitely try to mimic his swing when I played little league briefly I wanted his number. It was he was definitely my guy. But I will admit I'm also I was Don Mattingly fan too because he was the star, right? He and briefly Ricky Henderson, they were the two stars on the Yankees and Don matt, you know I love Ricky Henderson but whose more of a he moved around a lot. Whereas Mattingly was a yankee from start to finish, so if you were a yankee fan of my era, he was pretty much your guy, He was Donnie Baseball, he was Donnie Baseball. So do you like for me, I collect old vintage baseball cards and that really connects me to the past, right? Of all these players that I grew up watching and not only from the Pirates, but from all these other teams. And then I got my son's into it and they've actually learned a little bit about the past, right? Because you kind of get into to that, did you, do you collect anything or what? How do you stay in tune with that past that that you had with all these people? I did collect when I was a kid. I just found out recently went down to see my my family in northern Virginia and turns out my brother in law has somehow inherited my collection because my parents were like, do you want them? I was like no, they're not worth anything. And if they become worth something someday that's fine for someone else. I don't want the hassle of storing them are looking at them or whatever. It turns out, he's got them and he said some of them might be worth a little something. Said you'd sell...

...them, take them out. I don't care at this point. Like those are um I don't associate associate the cards with the cards. The cards were collecting the cards and he went to some card shows when I was in high school and that was kind of a big thing briefly. But to me I was always a little separate from my fandom. I would like to get cards of certain players I liked. But once it became a thing where you know, you were collecting this card because it might be worth something that started to separate it for me from actually following the sport on the field. I like, I'm still often say I like baseball for the baseball. I sound like a grumpy old man when I talk about going to games and there's too much time between innings and I don't care about the entertainment that's going on between the innings or the, you know, I could do with a lot less music even though I love music, but I'm here for the, I'm here for the baseball. I just want the baseball, my fandom as just when it comes to baseball is like, weirdly, may be artificially kind of pure. I just want the baseball. And if you want people are like, why? Like a good brawl, breaking out of sex? Go watch hockey. I'm here for the baseball. Yeah, Baseball is, you know, especially with this age of how everything is Tiktok, everything's speeding up. That's one thing I wonder how baseball is gonna, you know, because I think, I feel like you're a purist in that sense, like you want the baseball, but when you watch it and you compare it to football and basketball and how the action and how fast the games move. Baseball is not like that and to get younger people to, to watch it. How do you feel about like, are there things that you think baseball could do to change that? Because it's hard? There are, and I actually think Major League Baseball kind of knows what they are. Um, and they don't seem to be moving enough in the direction of doing so. One is just getting the baseball, which they said they were going to do going into this season and in spring training, the balls were not dead. They were as lively as they've been the last couple of years. And in the very early going, this isn't really enough data to draw firm conclusion. But I don't think the baseballs are any less lively than they've been the last couple of years. And the problem is more balls hit into the seats means fewer balls hit into play for fielders to field and there's less, so there's less fielding, less great fielding, less bad fielding. We saw some bad fielding and watch some of the white sox game last night. There's some very bad fielding and there's, and there's less space running. We just want more runners. We want more things happening on the actual field of play because people do like that, they're exciting and they generate highlights, which as you said in our sort of, your social media oriented time period here. People want things they can clip and share and frankly the league's should do that too. And the other thing they can do and I've argued this for a while is to raise the bottom of the strike zone. The bottom, the size of the strike zone has changed over the years. It's always going to be true until we do automated strike zones. But one thing we've seen is that the very bottom of the strike zone has had a gradual drift downward. And that's allowed the pictures like Dallas critical to live at the bottom of the zone. It's ground ball, ground ball, ground ball, that's good for them. However, those pitches aren't going to get, hitters can't really do much with those pitches. So they're left to take him for a strike or they hit him right into the ground. And that's not really what we're looking for. We want a strike to be a pitch that if the hitter swings, he's got a pretty good chance to hit it hard into play. And then you get what I just said. Fielders, fielding runners running, we don't get that. And if they raise the bottom of the strike zone a little bit, force pictures to pitch more towards the sort of sweet spot of the zone for hitters, you'll get more of that. Ultimately. They should all be in service of more of the time of the baseball game, should be taken up by balls getting hit into play. Fielder's going after them and runner circling the basis. Yeah, I like that because if you're dead in the ball a little bit, it's gonna let pictures say, okay, my chances have given up a home run probably aren't as good. So I'm going to throw more strikes, right? I mean, you know, you're gonna not get a Glavine and maddux, we're leaving it. Those guys were, to me were unbelievable with their control and there, you know, it's not like they were thrown hard, they...

...were just there never just so accurate. It was unbelievable. But I like that idea of defending the baseball just to put it in play to get more action going on in the game, right? Because I also feel like guys don't like there's so many ball pitches being taken now, like, because of their technology is so good, they learn how to see the ball coming out of the hand faster. So, uh, you know, I think if if you if you make that strike down a little smaller, make the pitcher's pitch over the plate a little more dead in that ball, put it in play, you're going to see more of that action. That And the other thing I don't think they do a great job of in baseball is the draft. Like if you look at the draft and other leagues, they really like who's coming next? What's the next? Like, you see all these things and in baseball, uh, we don't get a lot of that information just out there like that. Right? The draft isn't something that's promoted like any, any of the other sports. So it's like guys like you're writing about and have to go see about it instead of hearing about it all the time over social media. Yeah. Now they've moved the draft this year, uh, for the first time, the draft is going to be in july, it's gonna be held during the All Star break. So obviously that's all moved. So now we're in Denver, um, which is great, fully support major League Baseball's decision. But the futures game, which is the prospect game that happens during All star Week, that will be on sunday and then sunday night they will begin the draft. And that means one, it's, it's good for the sport I think because now the draft takes place after the college World Series. So all the players are done, players could actually come to the draft maybe. And the other thing is it's no longer draft would be on a night where in june on a night when there were other baseball games. So now it's going to be the one baseball thing that's on maybe we can get more people to watch because part of this is a chicken and egg problem right? There are a few folks like me and Jonathan Mayo and jim cows and MLB and eric long and Hagen at fangraphs. There's about five or six of us maybe who are full time jobs are prospects and we do the draft. We cover the draft. That's not that many really. And there's only so much we can do. We only have so much reach. Even if you smash us all together, we can't make the draft more of a thing. Major League Baseball's take that first step. And I think isolating the draft as this is the one thing you're going to watch this night if you're a baseball fan, even if you just stay for the first round and then there'll be plenty of information out there to tell you why Jack lighter, who's the best prospect in this year's draft. If the Pirates do take him number one, here's what he is. Here's why it was a good pick. We can do that. But the draft has to be, they have to put it up on its pedestal and say no this is a marquee event for us. Just like it is for the other three major sports in the U. S. Yeah I think I figured who they were talking about, who was it that maybe the rookie I saw an article that you were on or maybe it was a podcast that you did and I'm talking about the rookie of the year last year and like the season really didn't happen and nobody even knows who this guy is but he's incredible baseball player. So they were talking about can he be rookie of the year again this year? And you were like no like yeah that's not gonna happen again. But you know they're trying to figure out like we didn't even like nobody even knows who this guy is. Like you probably everybody knows who Justin Herbert is with the chargers, right? That that like this amazing rookie of the year, this quarterback that came out because the NFL just just pump that out all the time and the other part of it. I feel like with baseball that we don't follow the rookies closely enough, like they don't like when they make the major leagues, there's not like you still got your stars urine judges and all the other stars that are out there that are, you know, promoted more than any of the rookies where the NFL, it's like it's really big when a rookie goes out and performs well. I wonder how many baseball fans and I'm not just sort of dismissing anybody here, but people who follow the sport, how many could name last year's two rookies of the year I recognized last year was a cluster and it's not a regular season. But You know how many people could tell you that Kyle Lewis and Devin Williams won the rookies of the year in 2020, I guess it's not very many also does not help that they play for Seattle and...

Milwaukee respectively. And those teams do get less coverage, especially on a national scale, but when the rookie of the year is not mike trout, it's not somebody of that caliber. It's not somebody like Aaron Judge. It's true, the coverage is less and there's, this is a problem baseball has had going back to forever basically is they have never quite figured out how best to market their young stars and right now we've got an incredible crop of superstar young players, one Soto and Fernando Tatis, Jr Ronald Acuna. Uh these guys should be on the cover of all the things right? The major League Baseball should be pushing these guys out constantly because they're super talented. They're very young and they were all really fun to watch. That's another thing, I think it's lost a little bit too. I love my trout, but there is a difference in style of play between my trout say, and to teach junior or junior junior behavior by is a little older. But a player like him, those guys play with a little more enthusiasm, a little more energy and sometimes more swagger and that may sell a little bit better. And I don't think you're trying to make them anything. They're not just saying no, this is baseball has personality. We have players with life and energy and enthusiasm and it's very catchy catching when you get into it. But we don't do enough to put those players front and center. And they should be out there in all any attempts to market the sport in the market or individual players. Those are the guys on which we should be focusing and I just have never really thought Major League baseball did a good enough job marketing those players. Yeah, I agree. I mean if Ozzie smith was running out and doing one of his flips today right, he'd be all over the place. Absolutely. People love that. Like they love that kind of uh even when he was the mad Hungarian to the picture like you, oh my God, it was great like he'd get behind the mound. Yeah, I know, but I'm crazy like there was like craziness to it, but he was just a picture, right? But he had this whole persona that he put on and and I loved watching it and you know, there were just things like that that I think baseball doesn't take advantage of, like you're saying so so we go into, when you were in high school, did you play sports in high school? Did you know, at that time you wanted to be a writer? What was that high school experience like for you? I did not play sports. I wasn't very good at it. Uh and you know, sort of later found out I was kind of never going to be able to have the strength muscle wise. When my daughter was born, I discovered you learn a lot about your jeans. Once you start having kids, it's like this was clearly not in the cards, but I was, I was a good student and I loved, I loved math and baseball's the perfect sport if your numbers at all and writing always came easy to me. I don't think I appreciated that until I was an adult and started doing some writing just on the sides and baseball writing just for fun when I was in my early twenties and pursuing a non sports career and it opened some doors for me and made some connections and through kind of some good luck. And uh the little networking ended up going to doing some freelance work for ESPN, ended up with the blue jays for a little bit in their front office, but even while I was with the blue jays and there's a lot, I learned a lot, there was a lot I didn't like about that uh that role and that work, life balance or imbalance, I should say, and left right around my right around, my daughter was born to be a full time writer. And after I'd been writing really for a few months I sort of realized, no, this this is what I like to do. I really love writing for writing sake. I love the work, I love the content of what I do. And especially in the last few weeks I've realized I really missed going to life baseball games like a lot. But just writing about it too, is is writing about anything just does something for me. Uh you know, I'm a pretty secular guy, but in a spiritual sense, it really just fulfils me in a way that very few other activities do. And I couldn't have told you that in high school. In fact, I would have told you I hated english class because why do we...

...have to read all these stupid old books, which by the way, I've reread some of them and as an adult and realized, oh, that's, that's why we read that. Yeah, that's actually really good. Yeah, but just listen to them. Yeah, that works too. You know what, when I'm driving to games, which is now it's happening more. I do audio books all the time. I am people say to me, well, don't you love, you know, paper books, Dead tree books. Yes, I do. But I literally, I have my kindle right here. I was reading right before we got on and I do audio books. I'm like a book is a book, I don't care as long as it's the whole book. I don't do the bridge books, which is fine for something that's just not me. But a book is a book. I don't care the forum, I love getting lost in a good book. And and I mean, it turns out I love writing and I always tell young people to younger people who ask me, you know, what should I do to become a writer, what advice do you see? The first thing you have to do is be a good reader. If you want to be a good writer, you have to be a good reader, the more you read it will help you develop your own voice and appreciate the different ways in which people use the language to express themselves. Yeah, that that's amazing. Everyone welcome to huddle up with gusts were talking with keith Law, keith new book, The Inside Game, Bad call, strange moves and what baseball behavior teaches us about ourselves is out now. You can also find us at huddle up with gusts dot com and you can also go to Manscaped used to code Gus Frerotte, that's F R E R O T T E, get 20% off and free shipping on any products. Uh we're gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back, we're talking to keith law. Hey, how come up with us listeners? Manscaped. Well they sent me uh they hooked me up with a bunch of tools and formulations for their package three point oh kit. So you know, I want to show you guys what's in the perfect package, right? We all think we got a perfect package, but they sent me the perfect package three point okay, and I want to show you what they sent me. So it was crazy. It came in this great box uh you know, and you can see what it says. They will thank you because they sent us this awesome trimmer. They sent us uh you know stuff that makes you smell better and then uh you know, they sent me this great uh some boxers what you get right, protect them and then uh you know, they sent me this cool uh, sad, I guess you want to call it uh, to store all your stuff in. So, uh, it's been great. Manscaped sent me a bunch of product. Um, you know, and you know, you can see it all on here. Uh, you know, you can go to uh, manscaped dot com and put in the code. Uh, Gus Frerotte, that's G. U. S. F. R E R O T T E. Uh, get 20% off and free shipping when you use that code. But you can get a kit, you can get individual items like, uh, this way cool rumor that has a little led light, um, ceramic. Uh, these things come apart, They're waterproof. You can do a lot with them. So, you know, uh, Manscaped is great. You know, it's funny, uh, I remember when I was playing with the Denver broncos and I'm not going to mention any names, but there was a gentleman who was playing on our team. And uh, you know, if you ever hears the story, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. But he brought his own clippers in one time and he used to trim his beard up, his goatee and everything and he had him there for about two or three weeks and he goes in around the corner, he walks in and there's a person, another player that is actually manscaping with his beard trimmer. So, you know, one of the things is, you don't want to use the same trimmer down there that you use up here. So uh he kind of freaked out a little bit and he...

...said, hey, how long have you been using that tool there? And he said, well showed up here about three weeks ago and I've been using it ever since, so, you know, there is a lesson learned that, you know, don't leave things out and probably, uh if it would have just said manscaped on it were, we would have had that issue, but it's probably one of the funniest, uh taking care of your balls stories I've ever heard or been around in the locker room in the NFL, so it's a great story. Um but you know, I always said there was no way to know, there's no name on it and the guy was just using it and another guy was using, it was not good, but it's a heck of a funny story. So one of the best I've ever heard in my 15 years playing in the league, um but you know, there's so many great things about manscaped and what they're doing, uh because guys, you got to take care of yourself, even though I got great hair um and getting older, but you still have to maintain some sort of grooming, right? And so uh you know, we all work out for me. I like working in my yard doing those things now that I'm retired. Get a little sweat on and everything. You want to smell good. You know, you got to take care of yourself, They got some great products, uh uh you know, this one, uh a little uh ball deodorant, we'll need that here and there. Um after, you know, working the yard, taking a hike, doing a walk, whatever you do. Um It's a great thing, but there's so many great products. Um, I want to thank Manscaped for sending them to me. Uh The lawnmower 3.0. Obviously you can use it anywhere in your body, but I'm sure you guys have all seen the commercials, but this is one just letting you know uh that uh the lawnmower three point comes with the perfect kit. You can buy the lawnmower by itself by all these products individually. They even sent me this wonderful shirt, You can see the back, uh your balls will thank you. And then here's the front. So it's an awesome shirt, Have great gear. Uh And you know what, so sometimes you can just sit back, take care of your balls a little bit and read the paper. So uh Manscaped even has their own daily news. Uh so which is great. So don't forget that you can go to the code. Uh Gus Frerotte and that's G. U. S. F. R. E. R. O. T. T. E. Uh And you can save 20% on any products. The complete the perfect uh package gift set and uh you know, you can save 20% and get free shipping. So use the code Gus Frerotte, G. U. S. F. R. E. R. O. T. T. E. Uh Hey everybody spells my name wrong, they even spelled it wrong in the back of my pro bowl jersey. So you know, I gotta I gotta help you guys out, so don't forget how important it is that you use these products, take care of yourself down below. Uh And have some fun. All right, there's nothing uh closer to you than your little buddies. Uh So use the lawnmower. Uh Use the code Gus Frerotte save 20% and get free shipping and uh order some great manscaped products. Uh So uh Mhm. Hey everyone welcome back to huddle up with gusts were talking with keith law, so keith uh Tell me about now. You go from high school, you go to Harvard. What was that experience like at Harvard? Did you have a plan already, like what you wanted to do? Or you just said, you know, because sometimes you go to school in your mind changes. What was that plan for you when you went to Harvard? Oh yeah, that my I changed my mind multiple times, you know, went to Harvard thinking maybe I be a lawyer or go, obviously Harvard's a place where...

...people go from there to work in government quite a bit and had thoughts about that and then went there and within a year realized that I was not enjoying the subjects, not enjoying the classes I had to take and some of it was the environment at Harvard, some of it was me, I think I should shoulder some of the responsibility to that end up switching to major in uh did a combo of Sociology and Economics. Um because I took an economics class and said actually I find this stuff kind of interesting. This might be a little better fit for me. And did kind of the main path for people coming out of and coming graduating with me from Harvard or around that time who chose to go to work as opposed to going on to graduate school, which a lot of my classmates did. You know, they're going to investment banking or you're going to consultant. And I looked at the hours for investment banking and I went to consulting instead. And so I did that for a couple of years and it was interesting but also like that's not, that was never the career for me. Those people you can you can make a lot of money. You're on the road constantly and you have no, you sort of parachute in. Tell somebody the old joke. The consultant takes your watch and tells you what time it is, definitely felt a little bit of that and certainly that you have no ownership over what you do. You give all this advice to companies and maybe they don't do it at all. Even if they do do it, you're gone. So you don't really get to stick around see the fruits of your labors. So after that decided, you know, I want to go to graduate school and it came to Pittsburgh to uh at the time it was G. S. I. A. Now it's the temper school at Carnegie Mellon and decided to get an N. B. A. As also a way to just pivot into doing something else in the business world. This was still baseball was just a side gig for me and came there and said, you know, let me get some further education I thought was this in economics. I found them all really interesting and that temper school there was pretty rigorous on the on the quantitative side, which really spoke to me as I said earlier, it was kind of always yeah, and those numbers are good. I mean what a great school to go to the Tepper School. Um and you know, you got to see a little bit of Pittsburgh Pit, I mean it's all it's all right there. My sons went to Central Catholic, which is right there. Yeah, so you know that well and they used to play over at Carnegie Mellon for some of their home games. So um you know what a great school, so so you're there, you're you know, you're in the business, you're saying math is my thing, but it feels like your passion still wasn't coming through, like you wanted it to know, and I came, I'm still working doing freelance writing for baseball prospectus at the time, this was 97 to 90 and I graduated from temper 99 went into the high tech world into work for some startups, work for 1234 different companies um in a couple of years and none of them really clicked and, you know, I wanted to do more and kept ending up in situations where I was sort of doing less, so either because the company wasn't doing well or it just wasn't a good fit for me and kept doing baseball writing on the side, ESPN approached me, is this 20 something years ago now, asked me to do a weekly column for them. And so I started doing that on the side as well, and I was certainly putting a lot more of my heart into that stuff than I ever was into the day job. And that led, I left Pittsburgh by that. We lived in shady side while we were there, which was fantastic, great, great little area moved. I could walk to walk right across that football field every day to get to where the, where the business school was. Now they're in a gorgeous new building. On the other hand, the new Pepper Schools massive. I was there two years ago, two years ago, this month, for my 20th reunion, I was like, dang, I wish I'd gone to school in this building is amazing, Crazy. So we moved back to massachusetts and I worked for a couple startups there, and nothing was really working out. And then this opportunity with the blue jays kind of fell in my lap. It was really sort of dumb luck, a little networking, but mostly luck. And I said, sure, why not? Didn't have kids at the time? It was flexible and started that job ended up spending 4.5 years with the, with the jays in the front office, primarily as...

...the stats guy, I learned other things, but my main focus of my job was managing the data and especially was getting so much of the work at the time was just getting the data. Whereas now teams have an army of people, 10 to 20 people who actually worked on analysis for me, the hardest part of the job was just gathering the data, getting it in, putting in a form that we could just do anything at all with it. And now it's, I mean I'm jealous these guys get that they have more fun because they have more data and the data is there for them and they can spend time doing the real sort of the number crunching stuff that you know, I'm still, I'm still a big quantity heart and I love that stuff. So you're writing around data and analytics sent. Is that like kind of how you kind of form you're writing? So it's a mix now because while I was with the jays I worked with a bunch of guys Tony LaCava and I'm talking about during the break, Tommy tennis shoes with the mets now, Tony still with the blue jays all these years later bunch of other scouts, you've been become great, great friends to me over the years and I learned about scouting. I learned how to go out and evaluate players the old fashioned way. And what I've always tried to do in my work is combined. The two go see players or watch video when I can't see the players and talked to scouts always talked to scouts because I'm not an expert and you know this there's just more value in getting more insight, more more, looks more views on players and combining the two so that when I'm talking about players, I bring both perspectives and I can also talk to you about the performance or now we have all this very specific statcast data on exit velocities, launch angles and spin rates. That stuff does matter and teams are using it. So teams like my attitude has always been, if this is how teams make decisions then I need to know about it. That is my job. I cover the industry, I have to understand what they're doing and when I evaluate players, I'm not perfect by any means. I get a lot of stuff wrong, but I can at least use a process similar to what they're using. And so I go, I told you the last couple weekends I've been out to see players. But you know what? I got on the phone afterwards and spoke to other scouts and said, all right. What do you got? You've seen this guy more than I have. You know what the kid I saw on Friday who was 1993. He's been up to 97 different weeks, but it was just really cold and he was working on a little shorter rest than normal and maybe I didn't see his best. And that's all part of my process now is recognized. I saw what I saw and my evaluation is what it is. But I have to recognize I saw a kid maybe on one or two days and the whole the complete picture of the player might be very different than that. Yeah. So what some, So your stats guy, your numbers guy, when you're looking at a hitter, right? What what stat do you look for? Like what is that? What do you what specifically are you saying these are the this is the 12 or three things that I look for in this kid. If we're talking about the sort of more traditional stats, not the statcast stuff, the first thing I'm always looking at is does he get on base Ultimately a hitter's main task is to get on base safely. And so that's primarily an on base percentage. That's obviously I look a little further than that. But if you just want to look at a hitter, especially a major league hitter and say sky any good, the first thing you got to look at is on base percentage because it's how often it is literally how often did he not make it out? That's the hitters #1 job. We want certain hitters to hit for power, we want that more maybe at certain positions or just given what type of player we think they're going to be. But ultimately, if you don't get on base, it's hard to be a valuable major league hitter. There are ways, but it's much harder. You're getting off to the right foot on the right foot if you if you do get on base at a good clip. And now the second thing I look for and this is a little more true for prospects to is how often do they strike out? Because especially for prospects and I'm talking minor leaguers, I'm talking college players to if you're striking out a rate that's a little too high, maybe higher than your peers at that level, guess what? The pitching only gets better as you get closer to the majors. So if you're striking out, there's a guy in this draft who some people thought was a prospect I never, never really did at the University of florida named Judge Fabian. He's striking out in half of his plate appearances in the sec play.

Like it doesn't get easier, right? If you can't hit that pitching, you're not going to hit double a pitching little and major league pitching. So they are telling you something, the stats tell a story. You do have to understand how to interpret it and make sure not to get too caught up in in what they're telling you, but just recognize these are the facts. This is what the player did, and that is information. That's your starting point to try to tell the story of the player. Well, if you're looking at a picture, what is the stat for you, because, you know, I'm sure there's a ton of guys who can throw it kept throwing a heart velocity is nothing these days. I sound like an old man, because I'm like, remember when it used to be, nobody threw 100 miles. And now there's a ton of guys supposedly Hunter Green, there's a story, I'm not sure. I believe it. I've seen Hunter Green 102 supposedly he was hitting 100 and four of the other day while he's coming back from Tommy john surgery, he has an incredible arm, whatever he's doing, it's triple digits. And you know what? That's not enough. There are enough guys who throw hard, like that hitters can hit it, especially if you can't, if you can't make it move or you don't command it. Well, guess what hitters have figured out how to turn on 100. So that's not it. You gotta show me you can miss bats and you gotta show me you can throw strikes. Those are the two things every picture pretty much has to do. You strike guys out and do you avoid walks? And those are the first two things I'll look at for pictures. Now there are other ways to skin this particular cat. There are ground ball pictures and mentioned Dallas chemical earlier, he's not the only one. And okay, maybe you can get away with not striking out as many guys if hitters can never they can never hit a home run off you. They don't elevate the ball. There are other ways to do it, but where I start is does he miss bats? And does he avoid walks? And those two things? That's a pretty good starting points for understanding what a picture might be able to do. But to me that is even, it's even more true with pictures than hitters to, I may go see a picture and tell you, oh, it's a plus fastball above average breaking while he can really spin it and I can see him and hey, I change his delivery a little bit, get him to stride more towards the plate and then he might command his fastball better. And that you may get one story from the scouting side that's different from the story that the numbers telling. This is even more true. The far they are from the major is the more that you want to try to tell that story and say this is what the player is now. But this is what the player also could be Because we're Talking about, I only see players going down to high school. You may talk to other guys in the industry. If you ever talked to a scout on the international side, they're watching kids as young as 13 down in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela and Panama. And I can't even imagine how to start that evaluation. Yeah, That's that's that's crazy. I am. So when I lived in ST louis, I had a good friend, Chris carpenter, uh, you know, picture for the Cardinals. So chris was rehabbing and we would throw all the time. I was retired at this point. Right, okay, throw and um, he couldn't throw a football saved his life, but he couldn't do very different things. People don't get that. Yeah, there are baseball. It doesn't mean I eventually got him throw a spiral. So it was good. But that's good. You know? And I'm like, you know, I could throw a football pretty hard, right? I could throw. I mean, that was a gift I was given. I could throw a football pretty hard. And there I'm throwing with a major league pitcher and I'm like, we're throwing, he's rehabbing and we're throwing 100 yards apart and I'm lobbing the ball just trying to get it there and he's putting it on a rope. And I'm like, he says crazy. I know I could throw harder and there's like this competition coming out in me, you know? And, and then he goes, hey, I need to work on somebody standing in where you stand in while I throw some BP. And I'm like, sure. And I'm standing there with the bat and I'm like, Yeah, I don't really know how people hit this. Like, it's great. He wasn't even close. He was like 70 75 of his normal self. And I'm like Okay this guy's 65 standing on the mound. He's not even like he's just working on a little bit of throwing, not really thrown any curves or you know, like I couldn't imagine that. It's crazy like until you've ever really done it, you just don't know how people can hit that...

...stuff. I remember God was just 22 years ago. So every usually every year pre pandemic. I try to take my daughter on one scouting trip every year with me, usually on their spring breaks. A couple years ago we went to Kentucky to University of Kentucky and they have had a picture is now with the Giants, he's still a prospect. Sean jelly. H. J. E. L. L. E. He is six ft 11. He doesn't even throw, he's just average velocity. It's mostly 1992. But when he gets extended towards the plate, imagine if you're halfway there right? Imagine if you're right handed hitter, you're sitting there like this, that ball's gotta look like it's coming from behind your ear. You have no time to react. And if he ever throws harder and he's done it a little bit here and there on the side, he starts throwing consistently harder. Hitters are gonna have no chance. They will have no time to react to that whatsoever. It's like randy johnson, right? I guess he was like, I mean you're watching pitch and by the time he's letting it go, he's in the grass. Yes, not even a anymore. 610 and he came from a little lower slot to so left on. I mean, he's good against everybody but left on left. Same thing that ball looks like it's coming from behind you and you have no time to react. And we you know we mentioned statcast that's one of the things teams really focused on now is we just call it extension tristan Mackenzie who's a kid who's up with these up with Cleveland right now. He pitched the other day. He's got close to 7.5 ft extension, some of the highest extension towards the plate in the major leagues. Now he's tall but he makes the most of what he has to. Scouts always talked about that gets out over his front side. But now we can quantify it too. So we compare the two things together, the scouts told the story. The stats can verify it and we know that's one thing that we know really does help because it just gives hitters less time to react to the ball. Are they doing anything? So like in football right they put these R. F. I. D. Tags on the players and now they're going to try and put them in the football so that you can quantify everything in football now. Like how fast the guys running, what he's moving. Are they doing that in baseball? Are they putting those tags on baseball players? Because I think like all that you're talking about with a picture like those You wouldn't think six makes a difference. But if you're if you're talking about length from the pitching mound to where they're letting the ball go six makes a huge difference. Yeah and it's a fracture. You're talking about fractions of seconds where hitters have time to react to anything. You can shave off 1/100 of a second makes a big difference. And what the statcast information which we have in the majors. Almost every minor league park now, a lot of colleges have put in that kind of equipment. Those are separate cameras and radar devices that are that are just around the stadium. What so many individual teams do now is they use devices that are on often on the players. Like there's the modest sleeve that a picture will wear. It goes from there there on the elbow and a lot of these devices for they're trying to measure things like very basic physics like force expended in that case, it's what's going on in the elbow while you pitch because the number one injury, the pictures suffer. Baseball Tommy john surgery. It's a a terrible ligament. This just happened. The guy who coming into the year, I thought he was one of the top five prospects in the draft class. Jaden Hill, he's at L. S. U. And then he started to struggle. Three weeks ago, he walked off the mound last saturday. He had an M. R. I. On monday partial tear. Probably gonna Tommy john surgery. Now, I'm not saying we could have prevented that with these devices, but major league teams especially or trying to put these motives sleeves on prospects to detect is something in your delivery, putting too much stress on the elbow. And that's new. That's really new just in the last couple of years and teams are keeping it. That's internal. That's proprietary stuff that we don't see on the outside. But if you told me I was in a front office in player development, hell yeah. I want that information. If we know that kid has too much force, there's the valdas forces one of them that's on the elbow, that might be eventually lead to a tearing of that ligament. Yeah, I want to know that sooner so we can see if we can do something about it. How you think about, you know, old school was when, when you see that, you know,...

Nolan Ryan pitched 22 innings in a game, right? Or like their arms, do you think that arm strength was built up because they get, they pitched so much, you know where that you know, you didn't hear, I mean Tommy john obviously has happened but it seems like today it's happening more and more, is it because of their, I just feel like going 56 endings. Is it like building your arm strength up? Because for me, two days in training camp, throwing the football as much as I could, that's what built my arm up. It wasn't in the weight room doing band, I mean obviously you have to do that stuff, but it was actually the throwing that actually got your arm ready to go there. There's, there's two things going on there, The Nolan Ryan effect. And there were obviously lots of lots of guys like him who would throw 300 plus innings a year that used to be the norm. Um, you know, a lot of that, I talked about this in the inside game. A lot of that is, it's called survivor bias. We remember the guys who survived, but if you look back, there were a lot of guys in Nolan Ryan's era, Mark Fidrych remember he was rookie you're talking about? Yeah, he, they pitched him out of the game, basically. He pitched so much as a young pitcher the first year or two that he just broke down. And at the time we didn't really have the medical capabilities to help a guy like that. Remember Pete Vukovich, who scouted for, he was with the pirates for a long time, Used to see him on the road quite a bit when the Cy young award in 82 blew out his shoulder is rotator cuff almost immediately afterwards. Never really got back from that. Those guys, their careers ended because of injuries. Maybe today, that guy would get to keep pitching. But we remember the ones who survived it, Nolan Ryan, good point. And also Nolan Ryan, I'm sure you've seen him. The man had to redwood trees for legs. You show me a kid like that. I'm interested. You got the Nolan Ryan body comp were, that's my car was like huge. I was always like, you know, you know, when I retired, I go over his house, we do like he loved crossfit and we would do crossfit. I'm keeping up with him and he was just insane about like he was a workout freak. You know, you could see like I could see why he was good on the mound. Like he could just go and go and go. You also, you brought up another point. I talk a lot about survivor by talking about pitch counts quite a bit in the inside game, but I actually, even as somebody who follows the data and has long argued for, especially high schools and colleges need to pitch these guys less than they are. But in pro ball, I think we've gone so far in the other direction where we were two years ago. Yeah, I guess it was 2019, the last time we had a minor league season. The Orioles have a very, very good prospect in Grayson Rodriguez, I think he threw 70 innings the whole year because they were trying to protect his arm. And to me there's that's too far in the other direction this kid could have thrown. I was at a game where he got pulled after 65 pitches and he was fine, he had lost nothing by that last inning. And I sort of sat there saying, Is this really the this is the best way to develop a picture. I'm not I'm not saying I know the best way, but taking a kid like that out, when he's still going 100%, there's no sign that he is tiring. Why not build him up a little bit more? See if you can just get the moment that his velocity starts to drop where all the whole stadium is going to know it. We have a technology now, then you take him out, but try to build him up more and maybe we won't develop all these five and dive starters. Now, maybe we can have guys who can go six, you want to see if he can go and when he pitches his 110th inning, if he's as strong as he was when he pitched his first inning, right, that's a sign of a good picture. Absolutely. And it tells you what that, what is the best way to use that picture. You know, if you got a guy who's, hey, you know what, he's five innings and he's done and that's just always going to be who he is. That's fine. We use those guys now. But I also want to know, is he one of those guys or is he one of those guys who can throw 78 innings? You can do that without breaking them, right? You can just push, we know we have so much technology now that the moment of guys stuff starts to drop, Everyone knows it. They'll know it in the dugout. They'll know it upstairs. All of us behind, sitting behind the plate with our radar guns will notice it too. You can take that guy out before there's any damage...

...done. And I just would like to see teams try to build these pictures up. A pro teams do it more and college teams do it a little bit less. So you talked about the inside game, your book, Tell me about what baseball behavior teaches us about ourselves. Like what does that mean doing? Like I'm trying to figure out like, I mean, I played baseball through high school and I ended up going and play football in college. I could have done either. But tell me a little bit what baseball teaches us about ourselves. Yeah, baseball is because baseball's the sport of just discrete events. One pitch, one pitch, one pitch or one at bat. It is great for breaking down decisions. There's a million decisions happening in every baseball game between games and every offseason. Whether it's what to do within a game or sign this player, where to bat this player, what trade to make, who to draft. We got a ton of decisions to break down and what I think I did. What I tried to do in this book was talk about some of these ideas from from economics and from psychology, about how we make decisions and the cognitive biases that screw us up everybody absolutely everybody up. But explain those using baseball. We see we see these biases come into play and lead to bad decisions in baseball all the time. And so if I can use baseball stories to explain kind of some academic material, but not make it sound like I don't want to write a textbook. I wanted to write a fun book that was based on things people in front offices were telling, People in front offices are reading some of these economics books, like thinking fast and slow. The Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize for this stuff. I own that book, I've read it. It's not for everybody. Certainly if you don't have much of an economics background, that book is gonna be a little tough. Why can't I write a book like that? That just anybody can read? That explains these things because if you're human, you're prey to survive or bias or recency bias with the most recent thing you saw or read just weighs more heavily in your thinking because because it's just right there like on the at the very front of your brain. And I thought I could explain these things with lots of fun baseball examples, lots of which people remember Grady little taking leaving Pedro Martinez in, in that playoff game in 2003. We all screamed at our televisions when that happened. Let me talk about that in terms of status quo bias and how that might have gotten into Grady little's head and let him to make a bad decision. Yeah. Like the whole, when I was with the Vikings in 0304, we had a guy come in and he talked about choices, decisions and consequences. Right? So there's all these choices that, that are out there for us, baseball, right? There's a lot of choices teams can make and trades and minor leagues and all this stuff going on. I mean, we've watched, I watched the Pirates obviously we've had some struggles here with them, but you know, they got rid of, uh, what am I not remember? Clint hurdle right there forever Now. They got a new coach in there trying to rebuild. I don't even know half these players on here. Like I'm like, who are the old school names? But those choices, decisions and consequences, I think or what you're talking about and that makes right to everyday life for all of us. And I think it's awesome that you put it to baseball. The, you know, the that framework is great, right? We have that you have, the choice is in front of you. What do you do with those choices and how do you decide between them? What I'm trying to talk about in this book? Is that step right there going from choices to the actual decision and how to make choices with a better just improve your process. Sometimes your gut leads you wrong because of these various biases I'm talking about in the book and it's a lot of stop get the data, get the more information. It could be as simple as asking one or two more people. It could be as complicated as going to your analytics guy no matter what industry you work in and saying, hey, we need more data on this. Give me give me a real analysis of all of the options rather than just jumping in and falling prey to what literally availability bias is literally, it's the first thing that came to mind and that's what you choose. We do this, we all do this as human beings and we can...

...do better, But we have to, you have to know someone has to explain this to you. I didn't know about this stuff until 10 years ago I read this book was like, Oh, I do that stuff all the time. Of course they do. I'm a human being and once, you know what they are and you can start to learn about how do I work around this to make better decisions? You will make better decisions. Yeah, I think about like, uh, the old time baseball, like we always say we're showing our age, but like the manager, you know, back when they could smoke in the dugout and he's just like, I think it's time to pull them like, no, no analytics or anything, just, I think it's time, you know, I mean, it's just changed now. Like they're on the phone, they're like, okay, give me the stats, right, what's going on? You must remember Earl weaver, He would be sitting there with a pack of index cards and it was, you know, at the time, that was the best data available. And he, despite being as old school and crotchety and foul mouth chain smoked all of that, but guess what? He wanted data to make better decisions and he was a pioneer. He was 20 years ahead of his time in that regard. And I still talk about him a lot. We are coming back around as a sport to the way he always said, the best way to break in a young pitcher is as a long man in the bullpen, you see teams doing that maybe in the last 23 years, he was doing that 40 years ago. He actually, his decisions were far more data driven wasn't always right, but he was really good because he said, this is the evidence I have, is all the data that there is. I want it all and I want to have it all at my fingertips in a game when I'm trying to make decision now that's much more routine and we have much more data. But I say, look, this isn't new school, we just have better information. Earl Weaver's as old school as it gets and he was doing that stuff. So Weaver would have been happy as a pig in slop, right if he had access to all this data. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he would probably he probably would have loved it. You know, not only just pictures but hitters, catchers, everyone, you know how fast can a catcher get the ball out of his hand and get a second. We have that down to the 100th of a second. I just did that the other day I was watching a kid from Miami, he didn't even between innings. He wasn't throwing anything under two seconds. I'm like, you know what, I don't know, maybe he can still catch, but he can't throw. You cannot if you draft that guy is that guy is going to go in the first round. Del Castillo, he's going to go in the first round. But you take him, if you think he's going to be a catcher, you're accepting from the get go, he is never going to control the running game because he just doesn't have the arm strength. We know that that is data that we have that's very firm. And then you see a guy like Yadier Molina who's still doing it after playing all these years. Like it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Um Yeah, so I think I think that how you related to baseball is good. It's just like life. We all need analytics and data. I mean from financial stress to everything else that goes on in our lives, this data helps us get through hard times. And I think that the baseball is no different. A lot of teams are getting through hard time. If you even think about, you know, the salary cap and all that data that goes into that and how they have to, I mean we see the astronomical numbers that some of these guys are getting. But it also goes back to that data showing that it brings in fans, we sell more assurance. We put more butts in the seats, All those things make influence all of that. Yes, absolutely. Um You know, I the one thing I would say that people who are fans of of you know, the Pirates now are in this, in this, you know, they're they're building, it's hard to say they're even rebuilding. they're just building right now. The Orioles are in this situation, the Rockies are going to enter this situation, Iraqis might be a different scenario, but what the pirates they pick first this year, last time they picked first they took Derek Kohler turned out to be a great pick. There are good things happening with the Pirates. They are headed in the right direction. I like Ben Cherington a lot. I've known him forever and I think he's gonna, and I know he's a very data driven guy, he wants evidence behind his decisions, they're going to make better choices and they will start to rebuild. They are rebuilding. And I think the system, I think Neil Huntington actually left the system in okay shape, all things considered and to bend and inherit, like in Baltimore they inherited scorched earth, somebody had salted the fields and nothing was...

...growing up in Pittsburgh was not like that and so they're going to get there, they are going to make better decisions. The short term may be very painful. This first week, I'm sure was extremely painful for Pirates fans given up 14 to the Reds was not good. Not good. No, I mean the fact is they're rolling out some pictures who just shouldn't be in the big leagues unfortunately, but that's what this year is going to be like. But the direction is good and one thing you can take heart in is knowing that the people in charge, they do think this way they do want evidence and then like Scouts, he scouts himself, he's not gonna ignore the Scouts, he wants all the information when you get all the possible inputs that you possibly can get from scouting and from analytics, you're going to make the best possible decisions or you're at least setting yourself up to make the best possible decisions. Well that's good. I've been a long term pirate fan, so I know I'm gonna be in it for the long run and and we've been through the ups and downs and you know, everybody in Pittsburgh just wants them to be on the same level as the Steelers and the penguins and hopefully someday we can get there. But so so keith tell everyone all my fans how they can get your book, how they can follow you and what you're up to. Sure. So the Inside Game came out in paperback on april 6th, you can get it everywhere, it's on bookshop dot org. It's on amazon. Um I have been tweeting a thread of local bookstores around the country that I know have it in stock. Just I'm a big book local bookstore guy and they've all suffered a lot during the pandemic. So if you've got one nearby give them a call, see if they've got to see if they can order it for you. They really appreciate the business. You'd be doing some good with your money to um if you want to find more of my work, I'm on the Athletic, you can find me on twitter at keith Law. Um I am also I also have my own blog. It's at Meadow party dot com slash blog where I write about all kinds of non baseball things. All that's free, all my stuff. The Athletic, you have to subscribe to read so I'm lots of places I did say earlier. I love to write and I sort of can't seem to stop myself even when it's not the job, I just have this urge to sit down, start writing right now. That's awesome. That's awesome. Alright, huddle up with gusts fans. We want to thank keith Law for joining us, giving us a little inside look into baseball scouting. If you want to follow them. Obviously you can go to a metal party, you can follow him at the athletic and really get some great information behind the data and analytics and and maybe find the prospects that your team is looking for. Sochi. Thank you again for joining us on huddle up with gusts. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yeah. All right everyone, thanks for joining me. There was another great episode, appreciate you being here. Don't forget to go to manscaped.com and check out the code. Gus Frerotte and get 20 off whatever you you need for your your current situation. Uh take care of yourself. And then also I want to thank 1631 Digital News Sounder FM, appreciate you for being a partner. And we'll see you next week on huddle up with gusts. And that's a wrap sportsman. Thanks for joining in the fun at the 16 31 digital studios for another to huddle up with Gusts featuring 15 year NFL quarterback. Aspirin, Huddle up with Gus is proudly produced by 16 31 digital media and is available on apple music.

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