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Huddle Up with Gus
Huddle Up with Gus

Episode · 2 years ago

John U Bacon

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Author of the new book, “Overtime: Jim Harbaugh and the Michigan Wolverines at the Crossroads of College Football”, John U Bacon joins the Huddle. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey Dave: what's going on, Hey guss,not too much! What about you hos this same with last night, I have to ask you which one well N, embarrassingly now I talk toyou in the car. I think you were going through a I was going through drivethrough, but that was for my daughter, Alo Yeah, what a good dad, but then,when I got home Kelly was out and she brought me home the sandwich. So therewas- and I had one I think before I went and pickd one OP. So there wasmany sanwiches whicht's funny, but this week's guest is- or this show's guess I should say- is-is very interesting. Yeah another author we've had several authors on alot of good authors, a lot of great stories, a lot of great stories andthis guest is a historian. You know sports historian yeah. Well, he mayknow more about the history, especially if college football, then most anyone today alive. You know,what's amazing, is these guys that we have on that research es and study?That's the dates and how fast they come up. twith stuff is so amazing. Theirmemories are unbelievable and I that's something I've. You know here, Littlwe're a little bit back and it's thethe recollection is incredible. The waythey can just come up with dates and stats. Well, an the and the great thingis: It keeps our street gon with this with this guest, an yeah and when thisstreak we're talking about is the whiffleball streak and he even wrote apiece on whiffleball. So he's not only called football authority, es awhiffleball authority, who's, a great writer and he wrote apiece about it. That is and brings back a lot of good memorit does and I'm sure,if you want to know anything about sports in Michigan John, you Bacon cantell you just don't ask thim his middle name. No,that it's it's a you and that's about all. We knowits all well find well Wa,ver nowhe'll, never tell us, so you have to listen to the end to see if hedoes. But this week joining us in the Huddle is John: U Bacon, author of thenew book that he wrote about Michigan football and it's called overtime. It's Jim Harbaland the Michigan Wolverines at the crossroads of college football, so joinus in the Haudol with John You bakon. So John Thanks for coming on O mypleasure, a d to Our podcast sut up with Gus, and you know our show wisreally about how sports shaped your life, and I think you havea great story and you've ritten about it. You've talked about it, but we wantto get to the beginning. We want to get to that when you were little andgrowing up in IT Arbor. What was that first thing that influenced you for thelove of the game: The love of Sport, whatever it was, we I love this and achange of pace for me. Is Nice O, of course, my dad? Is a big sports fan, nosurprise there. It's Probaly true for a lot of us. He was not a great athlete, but not abad one, but he got US interested in the baseball and all that he did notplay hockey. My main sport is from New York and I couldn't skate, but my best friend dad played goalie AdMichigan. So now I'm playing Hocky, which I good things O'm five foot,eight so basketball would have been cruel to say the least, but there's nojumping in hockey. I like that. So, but it's funny how almost every JEP, O've,Gott and ebernews atroyt news. You name it down the road. Almost all F, it camefrom being a pretty average high school hockey player and it opens doors man.It gets into things and now that I've got a kid myself, but I want for him iskind of what I had, which is be a good enough athlete to make some teams andget some teammates an get exercise and not being video games all day long andalso to make home teams and e get copers. Tom Teams learn how to take a set back and keep going and Kik.Given what I scouldn't things I got. Some of I got pleny of those also sofor me, is a great experience playing hockey and baseball growing up one ofmy great influencers beyond Rost tross child. My first hockey coach, Canoncoach Mac, macmacenzie o, actually live in Scottdille and just passedaway acouple year few years ago, in Fourth Grade, I'm picking, daisies and rightfeeld, an the last batter on the team playing threaing, the game and theprevous coach had no faith in me. Obviously- and then course mat comes inmy fifth grade year and all Sudde, I'm batting first, I'm starting to catchhim, the Captin, the team and embadding like four fifty or something, and thatshowe me at an early age. What a huge difference having a coach of believeingyou can do. I could not have been that much bigger, faster and fifth grade andfourth grade but coach Mac of the guy. I will never forget to destroying himfor Yahoo few years ago and and he actually read it- had Noye whathappened to him and he found that he read it and we exchanged a few lettersand they passed away the next year. So I was grateful that I got that off tohim. So that's the kind of guy can change your life...

...until you said that COACHMAC passedaway. I was hoping, maybe he'd be available to coach the pirates. Thank it. USIN man, Iwa, calling coach,Mak Te to sweat, drip it off his pointy nose and I play catcher hes poundingour ground balls and occasme, throwing out for me, of course, a little bunt orwhatever and yeah the pirates finaminls go along way. People Panemen afst goalong way, so Jon. What was a neighborhood that you grew up in like?Was it like? Hey a bunch of kids going out or was everything organized for you?I mean we talk all the time about things are uneorganized no parents,envolve no coachis involved, get on your bike, go play with your friendsand and that's how a lot of us learn the ups and downs to sports. It wasthat one, of course, the first neighborhood we live in SAS, an secondor third grade in Ju ton of kids, the end of the baby room, basically andyeah after dinner. We all got let out, and parents had no idea. Where e werehe had ten fifteen twenty kids, O playing soccer or Biggim a baseballfootball or kick the CAN or catch the flag whatever it was, and of course youhad ta solve your own disputes. You had a you know. Do I doover if you had to,but you had to fear it all out and even if you'r pick last, I was but theyoungest smallest kinthat group. So I often was even if your pick last so what suck itup get over it, and I interviewed Yogi Baro years ago about this, and he saidyou know his grandson Dale's kid is a hotshad baseball player, travelt himkid and so on. He said they haven't a van that travel three or four hours.They played a deubile header. He might have six or seven in bats. He said JoeGear, Jo and I in the Italian section of SNT Louis, we had simined bats bylunch. We hat thirty bath by lunch. All Right! Stick Ball! No one's panattention be Lon to play baseball by playing baseball, not biging on a vanand going to game. So I'm an Oll believer in that. I'm not sure how youcould do it now, but that's fad hockey, man and ponhacky no on is in the benchis too cold Havron's plan and that's how I grew up yeah. I know I love thatand that's how we all grew up and Dave. We got to find out we're still witwe're going to increase our percentage right now or or it's going to go down.Lon, I'm Goingno say it's going to increase, so I John we're talking aboutwiffleball. Did you guys play whiffleball? Oh increase baby whippeba,yes, Google, my name and the name whippeball. I wrote a pieace last yearfor the post came the Gud Bost Gams yeahyes there you go love ityeahl, yeah,Wot Oball, all year long, and I got a news: Go guys, I'm no Gutth Forat, I'mnot in O quarterback, but damn it up an Torsh Lake Michigan. I still have therecord for sixty month. Home runs the summer of seventy six. No one beingthat yeah, I don't know Dave says you could' hit his twel a Sixh curballthough it's pretty wicked. He Yeah. Then not in the big leagues, that's forsure, but man witfootball awesome. We als had the rule to because j Johsonwas too fast. He got to throw the ball at the runner. If he hit him he's out.Oh Yeah, yeah yeah. We had that like come on. If you're going to cry becauseWIFP a ball into then, especially if it's like four und four or something oon in the fielder right, you o four tour. Three and three we say: PICTURShands your out AL, that business use the lawn chairs the umpire a Lon Certe on is or the catchersometimes exactly yeah right right. Yeah know that that we love that eveneverybody almost wat. We at now about ninety six percent. Now it'sgait yeah.It's Sa Word Nice Street E, Havenn Afishanatoyeah. Ninety six percent yeah.This is encouraging people. Oh Yeah, O, like wiball Communist, that he is likewhoball right therthere. I ded it that Mig e her. You should write a pieceabout that. John, that's percent! THAT'S PRETTY GOOD! Yeah! Yeah knowthat's been great because we feel like, even though it was wiffaball and it toyour buddies. Even then you had ups and downs like it was about learning how toplay the game learning how to get Aong with friends. It was so you know beingable to socialize with everyone in your in your community and I think kids justmiss. So much of that today. Heyu do and, like I said I mean you gotto pick your own teams get a Sov, your own disputes. We have plenty ofarguments all right and if you keep arguing the game ends, so you Hav tofgure out something you know I do over or whatever and yeah. They say thatalso I'm talking to Baseball Coaches Division, one college, baseball coachesand they say wit, all he traul with him and all the rest. These guys can't playcatch. They don't Haw to do it, they're bad at it. That struck me as incredible, but it'sall travelting, yeah and- and I mean I kind of have t a big pet peeve. Even atfootball it's it's. I got to go find a coach o teach his kid how to throw whenhe's eight years old, then I got to go, find another coach and then weeverything's got to be organized. I mean we went out. I was Terry Brashawwhen I was a kid we just came out and Wen the snow and and we would play we'dmake the field whatever it was. Whatever we had, we took her hats offor scarvs OFCs made the boundaries and you just played the week act. They right, you playedall day long and your parents had no idea what you're up to and N we used togo by once touchdown's worth one in...

...backyard football, so Kantegos to Tanthat team win yeah. We have. I have a good friend, Keith conchuck, who stillplays with aball in his backyard up and Hel and Keit. You know every summerthey go up to his home outside of Boston there and- and he actually has abackcard- looks like a mini baseball pill and they have big time, wih o alltournaments. And you know those are the things I think kints just miss outtoday. I know e sports and gaming is getting bigger and bigger and bigger,but there's just something intangible that you can't learn from all thatstuff. I love it any anyone on our generation, man or I'm a little or thanyou but man, think about those memories, and wecan come up with those numberis like that. We can remember specificwhippetball games, which is ridiculous. I mean they know. UMPIRES ANOPENEUS wasnot there, nobody cared, but man we cared. A lot is just so muchfun. I never call being boared playing those games. Nothe great and I have twodaughters that are in high school. They both played volleyball and basketball,but I don't think either one has ever played a pickup basketball game whichseems unbelievable, but I believe it's true like we have a hoop in ourdriveaway. They occasionally shoot a that, but I don't think they'veeverlike gone to a park and play noose. I don't think anybody tells no, I neversee a well, it would cal. In that case, HEU would have to actually put downtheir phone, which is that's a athat's, a sin in itself, rightright hard toplay. One handed right, yeah right so John. You basically spent like yourtime as a kid. You learned a lot of things from coach Mac. You go onto highschool. who was that coach that influenced you in high school? I had a good coach in high school BobPerry played high school hockey, but the great coach I had after that, whenI was in Asistin coach at a place called Caver Academies in Indiana, wasAl Clark who started the program and produced six or seven and it chlplayers, including teammates of Kachuk, by the way I'm at about a hundreddivision. One players, this guy 's, a quiet guy who never yells a Fli bit ofcap of Math meajore, that is not e profile, usually have a coach. But whathe's done? Thereis amazing? They produced. You Know Cala, statechampions and he's, as so soft spoken Carr about the kids and pushed him, andthat's when I kind of realized man. There are a lot of ways to do this. How,as e used to you, know yars and screamers, and hear my voice, of course, but this guy was so quiet, but man ofBros, one o two things had to care about him and he got to push him tocare about him and don't push them you're a softy, and nobody remembersyou if you pushim Mo don't care about them, you're a jerk no'! Remember you,Hey, won't like you. The hard thing is a carebottom and push them. At the sametime, coach Mack had that coach Alad Coma had that and those guys you neverforget right. No, I agree with that. So did you have an idol somebody looked upto when you were a young kid playing hockey, Oh sure I had on the hockeyside, I had Alis Gel vecum and it a Ha Samer with the red wings, get to knowhim a little bit over the year through sports writing number ten. He was Gordy,Hous, linemate and maybe an an idiot. I run ITO Gordiow and I'm in high schoolflynot to Hartfard, where he's of course, till playing and of his career.I say excule E, your girdy. How right goes yeah and Aripoov nothing. I've gotno idea. Why. I said this. I said AIS Tovacois, my favorite player, he proa out of my mouth and the SeonIsman taking you moron. How could you have said that? And he was so cool hegranis and he said mine too io a lot of goals. That's a great, a that's Bette Gorty!How class were right there, but so that was a special memory. Obviously we DIDUP TO AL AVECO and N BaseballBill Free and number eleven for the Tigers and got Ta know him a little bitto an his coach in Michigan, and I was always a catcher in baseball to I'm toosmall for that. But those are guys admired, and you know it's like it'sYusl, a bad idea to meet your idols when you're older, because comeninoudrunks ar louts or ego maniacs or whatever, and both of those guys werejust great. So that was that that broke that rule. To So when I was coachinghigh school hockey here in Michigan on the side of my wreding career, I always kept that in mind. So we talked a little bit about yourhockey. What about your baseball side like Choo in Michigan? Who Do they,like I mean? Do they rootfor? IS IT DETROIT? Who, usually you guys arecheering for? Is somebody else now it's detray and that's the problemyeah. I did the mat in this for the latestbook over time. Miciin football and they've got, of course, four Magor Leeteams here in Detroit and have had for a long time in the SVENIS, when I'mgrowing up, you've got four chancs a year to win a division title times. Tenyears got forty shet forty chances doing a dividen title. Detroit teamswon exactly one when I was growing up the tier, an Ninenee d nrnty two and Iremember it and they won nothing else, the rest t decade. So I grew upthinking, there's no way when I, when anything when they finda one, thatworld seres in eighty four with Lance...

...parish and those guys, I could not believe that it actuallyhappened. So that's what makes you a college ball fan by the way withhow teI tratan stink, go blue well, John. I grew up in Tucson Arizona, but I was apirate fan, but my favorite player was ron the floor because after seeing therun the floor story, Oh yeah H, I think it was on Ieron playing round the floor.Yes, I know we could e. You could swipe the Baseso ow AD te fantastic. That was a summerof seventy six. I am the witball champion home, run. Hitter they've gotround the floor in the Offtar game and Markd Tha Bird Federich on the mound owthat might have been the happiest summer of my life you're twelve yearsold and as Stephen King said, and stand by me, the famous movie, of course hesaid: Do you ever have friends the way you do when you're twelve? You can'tdrive every day you spend with each other. It's taking for granted, weplaying the same games, the same sports and all that stuff, and that, for me,was a magical summer. Yeah, that's great! We all have those kind ofmemories of you know. I have several of those when just I remember just goinggetting up in the morning, dad saying don't come back to the whistle blowsand you go an gotta go. You onag find something to do. Get all your friends up. Let's go, Igonta go play some kind of sport and you had to go to Johnny's house becausehe had this ball, that he wanted to use, and he was the only one o Mae en whohadit he wasn't home. So hed go to play some other sport because so and so hadthe hockey sticks whatever it was, but those r those are great memories. Sohere's the question: here's the question: How much time when no one'saround how much time Di you spent throwing a tennis ball on top of theroof and catching it. I can't tell you throwing it off a wallor any anything. I can get my hands on. I mean you just you just playedconstantly. I can remember hours of just shooting basketball. I wasn't verygood at it, but I can just remember going to the local hoop and playing forhours upon hours. Why? I love that oright, I love throwing it off of thestar. There was a staircase in First Sen of steps in front of my house, soyou pitch to the stare case. But if it hit like the corner of the step, Iwould get the lion drive. Yo could actually play a game against yourself O.sometimes it would just come back slowly and there's an out, butsometimes I would like fly over your head. Well as very lonely, as you canfight Tellsi a lot of fun R, one of the other things I used to do as my dad had about twelve apple trees inour yard. We had about an acre of land, and you know we were that far outsideof Pittsburgh, mout about an hour outside and my job. Every follows allthe aapples that were not good. I'd have to throw in the woods, and mostpeople would put them in a whlbur or whatever I would just no now I wouldtake thim one by one and see how far I could throw mem into the woods. I don'tknow how many apples I've thrown into the woods H, yeah. We just juststrengthening my arm because thes suckers are rotten or whatever and I'mjust flinging them. As far as I can you no thi'm over the power lines or youname it well, no and also being Arizona. There's a lot of rocks around, as youcan imagine, so I'd find a stick and then just do like endless like fungopractice into the Deso at rock. You know so, once again we establish AASLON LA I comanas. I also call it the stairgame also. This is mihigan closer where gos grew up in FITTSBURH, of course, soI play tha stair game inside like three or four months out of the year, so thebaseon stairs were well use. Those are the wooden ones. Those are that'simportant. Oh yeah, Ortev ones aren't as good. No there's less yea the ball,there's less vilosity coming off the corner. If it's carpeted well thatit,when anybody can do that comyeah right yeah, you got Ta Fire It. You got tohave some something to come back at you. Working on this like yeah, could like acomeback or that almost hurts like right right, O yeah, You'e Goit to getin front of it. So so John, you grew up in Ann Arbor and you went to Michigan.Is that just like a natural fifth? Or did you look anywhere else or did youknow you're going to be Wolverine? I look some other places and got im someother schools, including northwestern, and it's kind of pathetic becaus. Youshould not pick your college on this Pasis, but there was one thousand ninehundred and eighty two and Northwestirton was in the middle of oneof the biggest horrible droughts in all college football. They won, like you,know, eight games and fifteen years more or less, and it cost twice as muchas miscan. Also, I couldn't really justify charging my parents twice, thatof course, but I have to admit that one of the factors on my list and ispathetic it. Why would I want to go to school whene? I stin a stand and watchMichigan keep the crap ot them when I could be Goin to that school, soRighi'm that very dumb basis. I Pick Michigan. Well, that's not a bad placeto watch a game either in Michigan I'd rather go there town, I woaldo gaseryeah were Rightthe Boeras, pretty good. Yes, so when you were with Bothamblek Becler,do you remember Existin Cochehad, Cam Cameron? Oh sure, so cam was my firstquarterback coach. When I played for the Redskins- and I don't kid yeah usedto tell me- i Alma, I was getting recruited by Michigan out of highschool and then they just stopped acruiting me. That's where I reallywanted to go and they stopped recurring...

...me some. When camen came, myquarterback cut said what happened. You were the quarterback cuats there andyou know you we he said well, we were going after four quarterbacks. We gotthe one. We really went in Han, we stopped recruiting the rest. I said. Oh,I appreciate thanks. No, no wor like hey we're, not recruiti, you anymore,just letters just stop! Let her Jus stop here's the question, though Di theguy. They pick get fourteen years n NFL. I bet not. I don't even know I can'tremember who they picked it. My I'm trying to think of that. What that Woud f Ne Housand, nine hundred and eighty nine, who would have been thequarterback I I trying to remember who that quarterback was Tad colins. Maybe it might have benfuck.He bleed on yors around that I'm trying to think yeah. He got some time. He'sgot a little bit of time. Usually I mean fourteen years it did well, butnot fourteen year, Yeao fifteen do co, theyprove thim wrong, Gus Yeah! No, butthe CAM taught me. A lot really did really did taught me a lot greatquarterback, coach and a d loved spend I time with them, and you know your newbook, Jim Harbal. He and I have gone back and forth of a few times, and you know we were in back in the daywhen they used to have you know the quarterback challenge. Idon't know if you ever remember: Whil Yoa. Remember that thing with themoving targets and all that Oh yeah and Jim. You Know Jim's kind of intense yeah. You think so. I'm in this IMI notice that too ewe're in the offseason and we're going to this quarterback challenge. I got mykids and my wife and everything and and it's really kind of laid back like theguys like to do it, but it's kind of like vig CA, fun, yeah, it's frigd! Sowe come out. I remember all the guess, A it's! My first experience with it. Ididn't really know what to do, and so I co down- and I got my Redskin Jersey onand and all the other guys forvn and carry cocar. No, I don't know, I thinkI don't think he was there. Cornel stupart was there drew drew bled. So I was there. Youknow a couple of the other guys vinnytestof verty and we're all ma anowe're, all kind of milling around and they're saying you guys, one a massageor what everybody's like. No, you know we were ut last night, we don't need abaside, you know whatever and here aen there's Jim over unded, the tent, an etwith the athlet trainers, get his ankles tape is wristtang stretchinghe's shweading before we start anything and everybody's like that heck's goingon, but we get to the one contest where it's like the one you got. I like kindof grab the ball sprint Gron, the ball spread hitthe target and all that- andI did pretty well I'- beat everybody else and Jims the last one to go andsure enough. He beats me bill by like point five seconds and ther and itcomes down to like a replayin and they give him the point five seconds rightto beats me and I lose. I lose twenty five grand I'm like are you kidding mecome on Horo, but that's the kind of competitor. Heis Beto the same age, and so I grew up playing baseball againsthim and I was a decent baseball player thanks to COACHMAC, but Jim was clearlythe best. Also football, of course in Bastby did not play those sports butwere actually teammates and hockey, and that was JIM's. Fourth Suport, my firstBORD and I've always maintained that I sleghtly better at Harba and hockey,and not one of my team Aes back me on this B. I can tell you that in eighthgrade hockey, when you got O, gave ut give out seven o'clock in the morningfor practiceins kind of stuff on a Sunday morning, we're all you knowtires can be and little druggand grous and all that harbal showed up. Justlike Iu said Gung Ho ready to go. This is hi. Fourth, sport, rint ow. Let esget two basketball games later on that day. So one of US Gosh is a greatathlete, but I won't tell you who, but but that intensity amont. Of course hehad as ankles tape. I got a throwin the book of Him Playing Table Hockey wit afriend of mine and junior high school, and he said UN like the rest of us. Jimcould never play anything without a scoreboard and a clock. There's nopoint playing forhisbee at's pointless, so they're playing the game. They knock alamp over as the lamp is fing to the ground, Jim Catches, it by the basewith his right hand and says the same split. Second, stop the clock that guy that guy's more competitive than MOS,so you love to you lost one of the best right. No, I agree. I agree so John.How did you so youse graduated with from Michigan? Were you a journalist,journalism major I probably should have been, but we didn't have that admissionat the time that killed the program, and I really didn't know what I wasgoing to do. I took run an honor tesis in history, thank God, but hunded pages,while taken four five createve riting classes on the side, so withoutrealizing it really kind of dumb luck. I had put together the perfectbackground for writing books. The research on the one side and the rigton the other, so that sounds I got lucky, but my first job was not andjournalsm at all was that caver academies for Ou Ol Clark that greatcoach at mentioned- and I was Coa teaching US history and coaching soccerhockey and baseball for ninesanddollars...

...a year high four figures and that's a astadio coaching career right there. That's that's all every code startsreally, usually it's like you, don't even get paid. When you start, youactually got luck and got paid you're right. I mean Ga and all that andthat's one thing to I mean obviously the money these days is incredible. Youcan make you know five ten million dollars a year, but fineme the coach inthis generation who made a dime starting out it didn't put in a hundredhour weeks, lining the field or doing whatever it takes to get where they are.It's pretty rare yeah. My son is at Williaman Mary. He played two years andnow he's coaching and he'll call him complain and be like Man Dad they justmake me do everything I'm doing all this and getting ready for the Games,and I have to do the scouting reports. Hand, I'm, like gunner. Every singleperson at coach at a high level had to do all of that and that's now it's justyour turn and they're. Just you know it's just running downhill right to youright now and you got to take care of that and that's that's just how it isyou want to be a coach. You want to be a somebody at the top, then you got tostart at the bottom, I'm sorry and and the hardwor's going to get you thereand he's been getting better and better, but he understands that a little bitnow I understand Aca Daplyn, NFL and toldhim that I don't know. Yo l have you no matterwhat I've ever told him he's never listened to me. So 'tmaybe Mae hot, a four year old, I'mgetting used to it already yeahhates, maybe something stuck in there.ION'TKNOW SMI GO AD. It, of course, and and you know hot- I goes when JackHarbor Jims Dad got to Michigan Coaching for Bau and seventy three.They made sixteenosand dollars a year and even back then that was crap, sothey had one station wagon for the two of them. Jack had to get a ride to gett football building every morning. That's that's how they did it so itsthe dudes. You got to pay and in some ways it's not a bad weedout. You don'twant to do that. You probably won't wont like the rest of it anyway. Sowhat's like, how does your writing career take off you've written at leastten books now, and I know you've do all kinds of different projects like whatwas your first like paying. Writing. GIG. first pain. Writing. GIG. Let's see, Iwent to misin law school for five minutes, literally whent, to got to thepart where he says. Look, your left look Youre right a in the semester, oneof you ill be gone. They prade themselves on flunking out o third ofthe class and the kind of SAI. We don't do that anymore. We're joking, but Iwas sitting there thinking man. I've always wanted to be a writer. I'venever want to be a lawyer. What am I doing here? I, like O my left. I likemy right and I said good news boys, I'm the Guy, I'm the word I tink ot the books I quitin five minutes. I return the book for a full refund. I'm please to say, andthree days later, I'm on top of the wit more lake pressbox, covering a prettybad high school football game for the animer news for fifty bucks per game.Thinking to myself my cleerwill never think more than it does right now, andI already love this. I made the right call, so I gave myself three years tomake it if I didn't make it in three years and I got to go back to lawschool. That was the deal I made with myself. By the end of that I had a calmwith anofmer news and then the Etrait News. Ninety five and ninety ninesports feature Riady in which is great n, covering them Super Bowl, theOlympics, you name. It then left there, I ninety nine to Ur Wright, freelance O,the Washer Journal, F, The New York Times and others esps portostrated andwrite books and now mainly reading books these days. So the big break,though, is thit trade news, Jim Rus, POB Jales at the tray news. They reallyI mean that's my first full time, job for CIINGAL out and I'm paper. Theyshould not e given me that job, but like coach Mac, they believe it. Theybelieve me when few others did and Jack Harbous told me. You know you need atleast one coach in life to believe in you and I've had five and I got tocount those guys among them that that was a huge break and I'm alwaysgrateful for that right. So when you're, you know as a coach- and you know, I'vebeen a coach and a player and as a coach you want to teach kids yourknowledge and then, as a player you want to you know you want to learn asmuch you can, and so, just like you said, coaches have to care. They haveto also teach about. You have to be tough on you. What is an editor likefor you when you were at the Detroit press there, and what did you learnfrom them? Were they hard on? You did D D? Did you get some of that feedbackfrom them at the great question and honestly, it's about the same they gotto push in. They got ta care about you mark, let I'm still in touch with himand Bob Giles his since retired. These guys were great to me, but they did notput up with any crap either I mean, as we said, it was a daily. It's not youdon't get anincomplete the next day you get fired, and I explain that to mystudents now Yorking for th newyork times they don't give you notyou Graddown the third. They fire you in the spot, so you got to handle yourbusiness, but they cared about me that cared about my work and thats eny madea lot of things possible. That would not have been possible, otherwise, solue grant. Think of that guy. That's about what you're talking about samekind of Guy Gruffold Guy, who actually does care about you, but he's not goingto put up with crat and and that inspires you. Obviously so ive lovewhat I'm doing. It's been fun to do it and I will say also having coached highschool hockey and some baseball too. That was a that's, been a big helptalking to coaches, because I know how hard it is even at the high schoollevel, and you tell a kid, the same thing fivetimes and he goes out and hedoesn't do it.

I mean when Ti get mad at the coachesand all that, I'm pretty sure the coach is not to hi, got to jump ofside I'llabout that one right now, all right. So it's a hard life and I think collegefoofulk coshe might be the hardest. You only get twelve games and he lose oneof those games. Man, it's like death, but slower and quieter. Basically, it'sholbibly around, so those jobs are hard well and it's! It's really is a bigbusiness too. I mean you love the kids, but you know as a head college hedgecoach, at at a major schooline Michigan, it's a business. I 's it'srelationships, there's so much intail. You know, I think in your book it youtalked about. There was a picture with it. John Secretary said you know. Thisis not just a nine to five forty hour work week. Are you right about that? It's Yeah JimSecretary, the enemy, Daniel the question they love ind, look youplayed at tos and Davyou know. What's going on with this stuff yeah, but thesstaffers, ther're, sixty seven fulltime, staffers and Shimbackerhalland, I'msure it's his name. It talser pet or penn state and their favorite questionis what do you guys do in the offseason and they say in the offseason Wu cutour hours back from a hundred hours a week to fifty hours a week. THAT'S THEOFFSEASONS! So and that's if your you know the nutritionist for the strength,coach, tecruiting director, any of that stuff, those jobs are brutal and thepay is not bad. Certainly, but they said look for the money you can dosomething else. A make more money, the glamor, how that wears out very quickly,if you don't love being around coled athletes, this is not going to makesense to you. So don't do it right? No, I agree. I agree well that John Yeu, like writing, alsoabout like Cu. Any teach is we just we heard at the beginning of the show. History is sportseen United States. Isthat fun for you to go back and teach thehistory of sports, or do you rather Wun do o? Do you like to talk about thecurrent stuff or kind of mix it both or I love it all man and it's fun to teachof course, as young as o three kids that was atthe questions is front of the answers for once, that's good, so a change opace for me, but the class I basically created thirteen years ago, hister ofcollege athletics and and theythere. I do it also ats amazingto me, though, of course, to them and bear with me here. The fave five isancient history to them, as, like man, Mit historyis Walter Camp, John Hiin,thats history right out of these guys, it's it's fat, five yeah! It's amazingthe references that you're used to making that you have to just to,depending on who you're speaking with our producers, twenty three and ie topick and choose what I use as a comparison, because Yoknow sports isall no comparisons. You know bu right true and in fact you know when Wewe'regetting ready for the interview. I accidentally said- and I was thinking of- Remember- MarkMakin at Temple, O sure yeah that Wel my guard played for ther Pistons for alittle Hile, yeah yeah. So so I I called you for whatever reason Mark Makin. I don'tknow why I did that it's Bryan Rihta yeah, but you know there was if just ablank look and Rember Mark Makand. It's like no, don'tremember, Mark Makinyo, right, yeah ut, but my world he was like a completethat was like when I was in high school, leaves a total stud right. Oh Yeah Yeah.How could you go know, Mark Makin? Well, there's so many TAC there's so manypeople that we talk to that are younger that don't understand anything. What aeven in the s right in the you know, theyre, that's so removed from them. Yewent I go. I just did a camp in Fort Worth and was talking to kids andasking them about certain athletes if they knew who they were, and they hadno idea. You know yeah. If they're not onmad, they don't know an that's whichis not explaining them. That George former did not start out as e grillsalesman, where the man with a stone called athlete askWha. casious clay was before I became a home in Lle so and the big shocker tome this last week. First, we get a semester. My student, some of them,were not born when nine eleven happened and that put in a perspective veryquicky like a day. We coul never forget they weren't even around for it righ.So that happened very fast y. You can't say where we Yoon Nineeleven, becausethey didn't exist, explain whet nine. Eleven was startthere, RG. Actually that might oet. My need explanation, sometimes to soexactly so, if youere looking at the history of college athletics, what doyou think is, let's say men's College Athletics? What do you think thegreatest game ever played was in any sport? Wow wowthe, most important game was notthe greatest game: Magic, Johnson versus Larry Bird, because thatlaunched, basketball and and, of course, March Madenesselle. So March. Madnessis pretty quiet before then UCA, usually winning. So that's the mostimportant one but ONA the biggest game. Mano Man,...

...great question, tough question the NFL.I can answer that one with a giant of course versus the cold. In fifty nine,which launches Nfl College. Hmm, I'm Gointo gave a lot of gray ones, butI'm trying to decide what the greatest one was. All of all time. I don't knowwhat do you guys have? Well, you know. I look back n. If you think about justfootball and theyall, you know and it not necessarily Michigan. But like noteDan, we talked to rocky Blir, even rocky, going the noter dame. He knewsome about note dame, but I'm just trying you know and how great they were.But you know he talks about going. There HEU got a letter in the mail-it's not like today, it's so different and I'm just wondering what really putcollege athletics on the map for for kids to really want to know thatthey're Goin to hey. This is a chance for me to go and get a scholarship andplayin college because they're going to pay for me to go to school. I wonderwhen that time switched. You know I'm saying and that's why right we have ahistorian on an college aflic and trying to figure out when what on withthat anl, I can answer that, one for you that in seventy three Michigan ties or Hiustate ten to ten no overtime back then so both teams are ten on. One they'vegot no tyebreager in that at that point in the big time, which is not verysmart, so they had a vote of the Atleg directors and they'. Let the ads votesix to four to send io state to the Roseborns sat of Michigan. No BallGames back then Dennis Franklin missions, quarterback for three years,thirty wins two loss es one tie, not one boll game on top five teams. Sofrom that game you can say that's when the ball madnes started back, then thethereare eleven boll games now they're at least forty. So now he teams go. Ofcourse that's where that starts. That's not the the only thing that broke it,though hmm one that has switched to that degree,probably maybe the BS. Yes in ninety eight O and of course the title Gamesbecame so big, but e had a big thing too. When I was growing up, there aretwo misket football games on TV every year. That's all biscos State Ohiostate. That's it thrust is all radio in the SS for Crinow Iin, Seventy Nine,the NBA NBA finals, were on tape. Delay Nationwide, you could not watch themlive, which is incredible, so you got to say the Ballmanniss plus Larry Birdand Magic Johnson. That's iny got a lot of it going, but now, of course, themoney and the exposures just beyond whatever anybody could have imagined, Buttho to to good places to start rightthere right. So what gave you the inspiration to write your new bookovertime? Well, I thought I was done. Writing theCoch bubbooks after enzone, because with fourth and long I talked aboutPenn state was inside with those guys an Zoneis how, basically theyscrewtedit up for four or five years, and then I was horrbol back seemepretty much fixed, but then it occure to me. I forgot to ask really theplayers: What did it like to be a player at this level? What does it meanto you? I talked to the parents for this one. Itink eight players for offense for defense, some big names, some walkons.I ask the parents also what it's like for them when Youre kids being tweetedabout when your kid gets injured, when you get is a big game. Big Game. wasthat what that's like for you? I talk to the staffers, also what theirlifestyles are like. So this is the best possible look. I could create ofwhat it's like behind the scenes of a major college program to be a player ora parent or a Stafford, as well as a hardboss stufs. So that's whatcompelled me to do one more of these books and I'm glad I did and I got tosay to I went away feeling a lot better about coseball than I help a year agothat for the most part, these guys are doing it for the right reasons. They'vegot plans after football and their parents are level headod people andmaybe more discouraged about the twitter verse, and I was going toripping people. You don't know who are actually kids, ther, three hundredpounds or six o five and they can't grow up proper beard. There's Stol,kids right an you got to realize that, and I think too is that the other partof the game and is is all the kids on the team. You know you only getbasically, twenty two startirs leve run Eng Side College or may be a littlemore, but you know Michigan has how many people on the team every yearhundred- and you know theyre- probably over ninety Iwould say: There's a lot of people just want to be involved in MichiganFootball. That may never see the field. Oh you're, right, yeah. You know, and Iwonder what that is like what that relationship is like with the coach andthe parents and everybody else, because, even though you don't want to Admittthey're, still big part of the team, you're right, of course, you're seningrecord Ta Tolsa, but I got a chapter on Matt Mitchell, a fifth year senior atMichigan from a local high school about twenty minutes away from here. Five esin the team is not godden in Asing frat starting is not been in a single gamein five years. As you know, Gust that's possible. I'm sure theyr guys had alsoknock themselves out the rudy kind of characters trying hoping for one playand he finally get same when they're beatin up on Ebracal last year. Prettymuch a blow out in the fourth quarter,...

...the special team guys called his namewhen he runs out there all the future. NFL players- Americans, all thestarters, Thay all leave the bench and go to the edge of the field. Just seethat guy play his one play in a mishion football, uniform and chase on of Itchnowitte doing the Patriots Big Defensive End. He goes out there andgives them a chess bob after the plan, their roommates theyrun to the sidelineyou look up, you see Mattmitchell's parents theyre, crying and chase. Oneof it is parents and from Pittsburgh they're crying also, and that's in yourrealeze. There are a lot of stories there. You just don't see on TV right and it's so important that youknow when you say it's a team, it's a team and when you see a story like that, a scenario like thatit makes you realize that this guy gave everything he had for five years and hejust wanted him to be out in that field. And that's such a great story- and youknow those are things that he'll never forget we're talking about with a Bola.We'll, never forget some of those games that CITILL NEVER PIET! That day. Ohyou exactly right and look get a chance to hire one of those guys do it,because that guy works, his tail off can take ordifors and never gives up,and those guys tend to do quite well s. You know from to experience at Talsathe walkowns hirm. If you can right because they're there to work, theywant to be part of something bigger than them and they understand what ittakes to get there and they're going to do everything they can to try and geton that fill it transitions great into the business world. Exactly Redin Guss,I guarantee everyone year. Old, walk on team at ETALSA is bragging about beingin your team. I don't know about that. I payi playd ith that guymaybe, maybeexcept for that one incidey I had in DC. They probably tried to forget me, then well let that go yeah, but even youknow you can even make a comparison to like baseballcoaches. Ther', you know baseball managers, some of the best ones, werenever very good players and some of the best players didn't turn out to be verygood managers. It's kind of that walk on thing that is sort of the sameeffect there o you're very much right. I mean how many coaches, an a sport,were really great. Athletes to this is very short, very short, and I asked Bo Sim mackerabout this because of course he went to Miami of Ohio and they've got thecredil coaches down there. Of course they got ta on the back of theirscoreboard, a mural of like twov or thirten guys, who played her coachthere for now in the Hall of Fame for Coaching Air Parsegian Woody Hays, TaulBrown said Gilman, the list is long and ridiculous, Boshan Micler and so on.John harboc Jim's brother- and I asked Oll about this once and I said man. Howcan you past explain how you guys in that small school? Have Fourteen orwhatever all tam coaches, because Bacan that'seasy, we could not play the game. At's likeofootball! You want to standfootball, you better forgot a way to do it. CITTING anbe plan right. It's likea Cooch Dick, a answer. I like it yeah rected to the point right. You got it Dick. I love bone vice verst.Obviously Right, Oh yeah, they were they were they were both likeCoachdicka. You know we asked him some questions and one of his every question.His answer was all about great and hard work and you know he's Ak Itsperg MelGuy, and it was just it was just great hering, his hereid his take on life,but we asked him: Wait: Whal! You Til, love, you right! Oh Yeah! He was great.He came on Pi for guy and all that yeah W s. It was a wonderful interview. Wereally enjoyed it, but you know Dave tell about what he wel yeah. We askOMLITTL. We aske some wt what his biggest pep Peev as and at took him uplike half a second to respond people in Bitch Yeahs it just lilike just get itdone, don't bitch about Juslot of people, Sayienyou doN'tholdthedo forsomeone or whatever you know, they don't say. Thank you. He usnot right,PEOPLEP, BITT RIGHT! THAT'S THE APINOMY COCHDICA! Well, hey ye that, by the way,above the foot mentioned with Anna mcdaneld, Jim harbas secretary with JimTalking, look above that photo the sign above Jim's Dornhas, two words: nowhining you wan to bring me anything else. I'LL! Listen! You want a bitch go,find someone else yeah! I love it. It's good a top. I think that's what we'regoing to call our podcast studio then no be yeah. The no wining yealining to now wining down yeah! That's right! That's right! All Right! HeyJohn! We appreciate you being on one last little segment. We do. It's calledno huddle we're just like with coach dickup, but we go through. We fire somequestions at you and and answer them quickly. I'm pretty excited to ask Johnsome of these question days. Well, we'll ask John Right off the Bat:What's your biggest pep peeves boy, it's hard to beat no Bitchin,isn't it yeah? No, we, you know yhere's my biggestPeppeev if you're arrogant, stupid people if you'restupid be nice. If you're arrogant be...

...right, you're, arroant and stupid. Thisis not going to go well. There's my take right there, a like I like tiallright. So if you could trade places with one person dead or live, who wouldit be for one day wow for one day, for one day, Ken Burns, the filmmakerout of Ann Arbor to the baseball Serieus, civil war and all the rest? IfI could do one thing, thatd, be it nice yeah as as a history pro like yourself,you must really appreciate Kem Burns. Oh Yeah- and I know my little bit he'so Hav Been Very nice to me, but that guy kind of remade the whole genre ofdocumentary film. So now, of course, having said that, I don't know damnthing about films, so it's not a very good goal. Hatw you on'want to do somebody Hadoesthe same thing. It you! Well, it good point it's only for a day to soyou can get away with it right, righ, ther Goi for day. If you could becommissioner of any league for one day, what would you implement? Oh, it would be I'd, be a commission ofhockey and I go to Olympic size rinks because they're too big in a too fastand there's no room. How about that? I, like good one yeah I mean hockey. Ilove the the speak, the game up for as many goals make it exciting. I meanit's still. We get a lot of that, but when the game in hockey is it's like long, slow baseball game, it's tough,sometimes yep, all right. Besides the big, besides the big house, what's yourfavorite sports venue, I got a lot of them. How about FREACSport, I would say outside the big house. Of course I love that beaverstadium at Penn State for a white out Saturday night. That is very hard tobea. That's about as good get, I think in football. What about professionalbasketball, professional basketball, Camerma, indoor stadium for Duke, ofcourse, in a few games there, and I don't know why they call it indoorstading what the helse would it be mor the outdoor statims back ten, I don'tthink so, rightright but camera and vary the Cameron. Crazies, that's veryhard to be that's number one. There Baseball Fan away and of conversation right. Idon't know I get a lot. We get a lot of good reviews on Pittsburgh, but just you got you gotta Hav, the windsthat go with it day as long as there's not a game going on at stadiums.Awesome you go back and tell John when you wereyoung when Youwere that young baseball, you know pro witfetball player, onething: What would you go back and tell yourself back? You know that you'velearned through your life. I would say the losses, don't matter that don't get to down itle lessons,but don't let Thas's talk you and and years from now, you'll get over t minsome cases many years, but hey the losses. Don't matter keep going, keepgoing all right with two more for Yot. What's the most overrated thing insports today, HM TV time, outs, hate them, stop that sonot overrated, but when e here e'me going to call on that one MI call amedia time out. I scream bloody murder. Now one gun to prest path called thetime out. Alright, so it's TNOT overrated, but it's overblown. That'sGind of stop right, overrated, overrated, HM homefield advantage. I ges overated,you think so, even with sevenyhusand or a hundred a tensand yeah. That would a dumb answer. I quickly I quickly rescended! No, butyou know what Thouh I think if you it statistically, if you do a littleresearch, it may be a little bit overrated like I think you know, I meannot with th. The point spread makes up for that, but if you're just talkingabout wins and lasses, there might be a little bit of overrating there yeahdon't know! I don't know. I still think you I mean it's home to advantage for reason. Youknow, I don't think it's just because you're you know for Lo, not for nothingright, ourse that could be my better interpretation of as a misson Alamseeing Hio Staye beat Mishkin sixteen out of eighteen times this century. So,yes, I've learned that it doesn't matter much to them, but to the buckeysright. But yes, but you are right, it doesn't matter, especially in certainsports. I think football, probably the most were emotions omenumit a big partof the game. No, I believe that I think there is something too about sleepingin your own bed compared to sleep in in a hotel bat, it makes a big differenceactually thit's funny. It said that by the way I asked the players about thisand they said being at home one of the biggersons why they love being at homeas they go to the same hotel ha've been going to for forty years. You stay inthe same room every time same roommate, the same food, same all the rooms insad. It's like been at your home versus being at at someone else's house on theroad you Gat that hotel. Maybe you know once or twice during your career, youget lost ot, don't like a food, you don't know where the hell they go andthey said the whole thing is desorde in a way I had not really considered. Soyou know about that Gusbut I didn't...

...yeah now. That is that. I definitelyagree with that. All right. Last one here John. If we were scrolled throughyour phone who's that most who's the most famous person, we would find inyour phone, Michael Jordan n that number knolerework. I all right, so we gon say Alein yourphone yeah. Ah, you gotta keep but all right. So if you call them or you textthem, David Answer who's that most favoriute person, you would have Hjohnsoners vspn. He and ided a book together. Three years ago, before hepassed away rich Isen, my my qualify, if youtacxktimmy will he will tace me back, especially during football games solid?That is a AIS, Funi love. I like listening to him a lot, so we reallyappreciate. Is there anything else? You woun tell us about overtime and we lovefor you to give us a shalow. You know so that we can, when we doyour promos and stuff and we go into social media, we can share that withthem. Oh sure, and I wul dit blast your show as well. It is last week a number thirteen onthe publisher's weekly bestsars list, so we're made a national best saurslist, that's good, and today by book, libraries called the number two bestnews football book out there number one is Bob toops that pastard Igh erewritten by jne Wuda Houki a greatfriend of mine at ESPN. So I can hardly regard them that but number two O'lltakes we're doing. Okay with that, and it's all in Johny Bakoncom and John YuBacon on twitter as well hey. We want to thank you for Joiing US Today onHutdo up with Guss, where we talked to a wide range of guests about how sportsshape to life. As always, I'm joined by my great friend and Cohouse Dave Hager,and we want you to be able to follow us on all of our social media. At howdl upwith Gus- and we really appreciate you and thank you for your time andlistening to our podcast.

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